Dr Nase wrote on rosacea-support yahoo group a rather rude, impolite and based on nothing comment about us
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/70088
If somebody feels to reply there in supporting us your very welcome,
we will probable do ourselves to.
Walter
Dr Nase reaction on Yahoo group
Moderators: Julia, Walter, Administrator
I'm also in no position to reply. I just started the products 5 days ago and am currently going through the "nsaty" phase. Dr. Nase is usually pretty open to treatments, so I also thought his reaction was kind of harsh. He usually bases opinions on either scientific studies or the mass reactions of rosaceans he has heard from via the site (e.g., "This study says product A can be helpful, but many people on this site have not been able to use it."). He has also changed/updated his opinions based on new studies several times since I've been following that group. Who knows what's going on.
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norman jones
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:45 am
comment
he accuses you of trying to make a profit. meanwhile go to his website and he is trying to sell his books. he mentions to use precriptions yet ask your doctor and you have to tell him/her what demodex is.
there is very little available on the subject, even for doctors so unless he can prove that his prescriptions ...his magic bullet is better than yours then he is just like the rest of the doctors that we have all gone to without any results.
the medical industry is very protective of its own profit margins . as i recall and so do many of you that they claim people don't need vitamin supplements and that all vitamins and herbs should only be prescribed by them. they have an RDA for vitamins and minerals the body needs. if you lived by their RDA which they claim is adequate you would be emaciated and dead within a year.
unless he has proof these demodex products on this website don't work then he has no scientific basis to criticize as we would have difficulty criticizing his "magic bullet" treatments found in his books ...that you have to buy.
judging by the ignorance of doctors regarding demodex we have all faced i would think his best customers for his books should be doctors.
there is very little available on the subject, even for doctors so unless he can prove that his prescriptions ...his magic bullet is better than yours then he is just like the rest of the doctors that we have all gone to without any results.
the medical industry is very protective of its own profit margins . as i recall and so do many of you that they claim people don't need vitamin supplements and that all vitamins and herbs should only be prescribed by them. they have an RDA for vitamins and minerals the body needs. if you lived by their RDA which they claim is adequate you would be emaciated and dead within a year.
unless he has proof these demodex products on this website don't work then he has no scientific basis to criticize as we would have difficulty criticizing his "magic bullet" treatments found in his books ...that you have to buy.
judging by the ignorance of doctors regarding demodex we have all faced i would think his best customers for his books should be doctors.
Okay, to be totally fair, I have Dr. Nase's book, and though he has many recommendations on how to treat rosacea, he does not claim to be providing a "magic bullet." If you follow the yahoo group, you would see him many times stating that he or someone else's suggestion may work for some but not for others. Yes, he makes a profit off the book (which he claims is actually just a few dollars for each book sold - the real monkeymaker is apparently the publisher), but Walter also makes a profit through this company, so don't be so quick to judge anyone who makes money - people gotta eat! Furthermore, he is not making a profit off any products that he recommends. Furthermore, he is not making a profit off anything he says or does through the yahoo group.
Moreover, Flower, I'm not sure what you mean by "flat earth" scientist, but he is opporating on the scientific method. If you're saying that he's not going to believe something until he sees the evidence for it, then that's what all scientists do. Otherwise, you're operating on faith. I don't know why he has such a disdainful tone in his post when writing about this company and its products. However, the scientific method does not mean just because something worked for some people under unconotrolled circumstances that it is a "cure" for everyone. If there are well-controlled studies (and there are plenty of studies on many different things that get published that are not really following the principles of the scientific method) on these products, go over to yahoo and let Dr. Nase know about it. Your personal story of how the products worked, while nice to hear, are NOT evidence by scientific standards; if it were, faith healing should also proposed as a valid method of curing ailments because, hey, some people got the demons sent out of them and then were able to walk.
He's basing his opinion that Demodex products don't work on the available scientific literature. Instead of asuming it works until he sees evidence otherwise, he's taking the safer, more scientific route of assuming that it doesn't until he's seen evidence to the contrary. If you think this reasoning is silly, then I could go around espousing a view that pouring gasoline on your face and lighting it on fire also cures rosacea... and it would be "correct" until someone proved me otherwise.
You guys are also making an error in presuming that because Scientist A was wrong, then all Scientists must be wrong. Because the "medical industry's" (not sure who exactly you're referring to when you say this - AMA?) RDA of vitamins and minerals may be incorrect, you're throwing out all other medical advice. I'm also not sure I've seen many people keel over and die because they're getting the RDA of minerals and vitamins. In fact, most people - many of whom are quite healthy - get less.
So, uh, yeah, I'm going with my head on this one. My heart also agrees. I'm trying these products for 2 months because many people have found relief with them. If I do not see improvement at the end of those two months, I'm switching back to my scientifically validated products, which were working well for me. If I see improvement, I'll decide at that point if is enough to continue. And before ya start telling me that it can take longer than two months... I was getting pretty darn good results with what I was using before the Demodex products. I had a horrible outbreak last weekend (which may be due to one or more of multiple culprits, one of which is the application for several days of something to my face that I may be allergic to), and that is what prompted this flurry of searching for new solutions. If my skin looks as raw as it does now in two months (It's currently Day 5 and I'm in what you guys call the "mite killing off, so your skin looks more awful that it ever did before" phase), I just don't see it as being worth it to keep at it for an undetermined period of time just because of faith. I do have other things I can go back to.
Also, why on earth are you guys being so critical of Dr. Nase? You're jumping all over him, but his methods and advise have helped a lot of people, too. So, what's essentially happening here is that there are two camps of opposing views. Both sides have good results with their methods, yet each is yellilng at the other how awful it is. I say try anything that has some evidence of working - whether it be empirical or word of mouth - and see. Rosacea is a pretty darn complicated problem, and what works works for one might not for another (insert "Dif'rent Strokes" theme song here). Furthermore, many people with rosacea have other skin problems (seborrheic dermatitis and eczema are common ones) that complicate things. So, geez, calm down and relax. Whether right or wrong, not matter how he came to hold it, his opinion is not harming you guys one bit.
Moreover, Flower, I'm not sure what you mean by "flat earth" scientist, but he is opporating on the scientific method. If you're saying that he's not going to believe something until he sees the evidence for it, then that's what all scientists do. Otherwise, you're operating on faith. I don't know why he has such a disdainful tone in his post when writing about this company and its products. However, the scientific method does not mean just because something worked for some people under unconotrolled circumstances that it is a "cure" for everyone. If there are well-controlled studies (and there are plenty of studies on many different things that get published that are not really following the principles of the scientific method) on these products, go over to yahoo and let Dr. Nase know about it. Your personal story of how the products worked, while nice to hear, are NOT evidence by scientific standards; if it were, faith healing should also proposed as a valid method of curing ailments because, hey, some people got the demons sent out of them and then were able to walk.
He's basing his opinion that Demodex products don't work on the available scientific literature. Instead of asuming it works until he sees evidence otherwise, he's taking the safer, more scientific route of assuming that it doesn't until he's seen evidence to the contrary. If you think this reasoning is silly, then I could go around espousing a view that pouring gasoline on your face and lighting it on fire also cures rosacea... and it would be "correct" until someone proved me otherwise.
You guys are also making an error in presuming that because Scientist A was wrong, then all Scientists must be wrong. Because the "medical industry's" (not sure who exactly you're referring to when you say this - AMA?) RDA of vitamins and minerals may be incorrect, you're throwing out all other medical advice. I'm also not sure I've seen many people keel over and die because they're getting the RDA of minerals and vitamins. In fact, most people - many of whom are quite healthy - get less.
So, uh, yeah, I'm going with my head on this one. My heart also agrees. I'm trying these products for 2 months because many people have found relief with them. If I do not see improvement at the end of those two months, I'm switching back to my scientifically validated products, which were working well for me. If I see improvement, I'll decide at that point if is enough to continue. And before ya start telling me that it can take longer than two months... I was getting pretty darn good results with what I was using before the Demodex products. I had a horrible outbreak last weekend (which may be due to one or more of multiple culprits, one of which is the application for several days of something to my face that I may be allergic to), and that is what prompted this flurry of searching for new solutions. If my skin looks as raw as it does now in two months (It's currently Day 5 and I'm in what you guys call the "mite killing off, so your skin looks more awful that it ever did before" phase), I just don't see it as being worth it to keep at it for an undetermined period of time just because of faith. I do have other things I can go back to.
Also, why on earth are you guys being so critical of Dr. Nase? You're jumping all over him, but his methods and advise have helped a lot of people, too. So, what's essentially happening here is that there are two camps of opposing views. Both sides have good results with their methods, yet each is yellilng at the other how awful it is. I say try anything that has some evidence of working - whether it be empirical or word of mouth - and see. Rosacea is a pretty darn complicated problem, and what works works for one might not for another (insert "Dif'rent Strokes" theme song here). Furthermore, many people with rosacea have other skin problems (seborrheic dermatitis and eczema are common ones) that complicate things. So, geez, calm down and relax. Whether right or wrong, not matter how he came to hold it, his opinion is not harming you guys one bit.
It is not so much about witch treatment is better or who is right and who is wrong, rosacea is indeed a complicated disease and there is not something like one cure for everybody, it is about the way he wrote this, the way he reacted, typically like most doctors, arrogant and impolite, if you dare to question something they say, for example, if you would know how many mails we get from people which are send home by there doctors as delusional because they don't know what the problem is, it are those things which makes people angry,
not the medical science itself, what would we be without science?
And don't forget, in science, what is accepted today can be completely wrong tomorrow, it is a never ending story about new discoveries and progress,
in history, many times they delayed progress themselves simply because to proud to admit they where wrong and that is still the same.
Thanks to everybody who expresses there feelings here, the meaning is we all learn from each other, and I think we do.
Walter
not the medical science itself, what would we be without science?
And don't forget, in science, what is accepted today can be completely wrong tomorrow, it is a never ending story about new discoveries and progress,
in history, many times they delayed progress themselves simply because to proud to admit they where wrong and that is still the same.
Thanks to everybody who expresses there feelings here, the meaning is we all learn from each other, and I think we do.
Walter
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Brady Barrows
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:47 am
- Contact:
Response
I responded to the allegations at this post >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... ssage/3319
Brady Barrows
rosaceans yahoo group owner
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... ssage/3319
Brady Barrows
rosaceans yahoo group owner
Brady Barrows
it is about they way he wrote this, the way he reacted, typically like most doctors, arrogant and impolite, if you dare to question something they say, for example,..............not the medical science itself, what would we be without science?
And don't forget, in science, what is accepted today can be completely wrong tomorrow, it is a never ending story about new discoveries and progress,
in history, many times they delayed progress themselves simply because to proud to admit they where wrong and that is still the same.
Walter
right on walter...you are the bomb!
flower
Okay, I feel much better. I understand how his tone was upsetting - I was surprised by it too. I was just interpreting some responses on this post as:
we're pissed about Nase's tone (okay, cool, got that, his tone was unmerited) -> we don't believe his methods (um... okay, I understand the things he advocates don't work for you, but not everything works for everybody) -> science doesn't support his methods (not true, some of the things he recommends do have support, others are word of mouth) -> science in general sucks.
Obviously, this line of interpretation was erraneous. I hate e-mail/posts - it's so hard to tell the tone behind the words. So, we're all in agreement that science is good and Dr. Nase's tone was bad in that post.
Incidently, I also posted a comment. I tried to very neutral (which I think was very easy considering the jury is still out for me as I'm very early in Demodex Soultions treatment and have yet to see positive results). I just asked him to elaborate as to why he disliked these products and stated that many people have found relief with these products.
we're pissed about Nase's tone (okay, cool, got that, his tone was unmerited) -> we don't believe his methods (um... okay, I understand the things he advocates don't work for you, but not everything works for everybody) -> science doesn't support his methods (not true, some of the things he recommends do have support, others are word of mouth) -> science in general sucks.
Obviously, this line of interpretation was erraneous. I hate e-mail/posts - it's so hard to tell the tone behind the words. So, we're all in agreement that science is good and Dr. Nase's tone was bad in that post.
Incidently, I also posted a comment. I tried to very neutral (which I think was very easy considering the jury is still out for me as I'm very early in Demodex Soultions treatment and have yet to see positive results). I just asked him to elaborate as to why he disliked these products and stated that many people have found relief with these products.
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Brady Barrows
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:47 am
- Contact:
Dr. Nase
Geoffrey Nase, Ph.D. is not a medical doctor. He has a Ph.D. as a microvascular physiologist and teaches at a university. He is the co-founder of the Rosacea Research Foundation - rosacea-research.org -
and he has his own web site, http://www.drnase.com.
He is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable scientists on rosacea and his book is accepted as one of the most comprehensive works on rosacea to date.
Why he chose to belittle Demodex Solutions, LTD is to me a mistake, but he did and may clarify his statement since katwalker1977 has asked him to explain.
and he has his own web site, http://www.drnase.com.
He is considered to be one of the most knowledgeable scientists on rosacea and his book is accepted as one of the most comprehensive works on rosacea to date.
Why he chose to belittle Demodex Solutions, LTD is to me a mistake, but he did and may clarify his statement since katwalker1977 has asked him to explain.
Brady Barrows
I was one of the people who was called delusional by doctors, one who didn't even know what demodex was and one who thought they can only effect pets.
I know he's off base speaking so harshly about this company and while I'm sure Nase has his head up his ass in one way or another, I cannot defend DS products very well untill I see them working for me and it's been four months. I have faith, but no results unfortunately.
I know he's off base speaking so harshly about this company and while I'm sure Nase has his head up his ass in one way or another, I cannot defend DS products very well untill I see them working for me and it's been four months. I have faith, but no results unfortunately.
Well...after getting cured..yes you read it well, cured from bad Rosacea, with one year of faithful use of the Demodex products and thanks to Walter's encouragement, I do feel qualified to repply to Dr. Nase. I did repply and told my story...I don't know it he will post my repply...still yet to see. If you want to know which is my picture I'll tell you. After all a picture is worth a thousand words...
Re: Response
Mr. Barrows, I appreciate your prompt attention and objective approach in responding to a post by Geoffrey Nase, Ph.D.Brady Barrows wrote:I responded to the allegations at this post >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... ssage/3319
Brady Barrows
rosaceans yahoo group owner
Moreover, I offer a quote from the introductory message that I received after signing up for the Yahoo! rosacea support group regarding etiquette:
" . . . from Rotary International, and is called
the 4 way test of the things we think, say or do.
1) Is it the truth ?
2) Is it fair to all concerned ?
3) Will it build goodwill and better friendships ?
4) Will it be beneficial to all concerned ?
. . . "
Among others who posted on the subject, Geoffrey Nase failed to adhere to the recommended etiquette. The hard way to find out what the rules are is to break them.
Sincerely,
Marla