So while I was ready to give up completely the last time I posted on this board, I never reduced treatments to any less than what Walter recommended. At the current time I am doing nightly ZZ applications while using soap in the morning and day. I am STILL on tetracycline because every time I've ever tried to get off it my face turns into such a mess.
I also use the DS shampoo, and this is where I've made the undeniable observation: I'd love to see the theories and debates, but to me... I've seen the same reaction and results over and over again to 100% sure that I have my finger on exactly what is happening.
using the DS shampoo does not do a very good job of killing mites, but does do a good job of making mites migrate from my scalp down to my face.
Why do I say this? Because no matter whether I'm in a clear period or an un-clear period, the use of the shampoo causes my face to have the worst breakout seen since the last time I washed my hair with DS shampoo.
So I believe 100% that success at clear facial skin is easier had with using the ZZ creme on the face and not using the DS shampoo on the scalp. You wouldn't believe how many times I've had good periods of a clear face only to go all to hell after I take the DS shampoo out from the back of the shelf and use it.
And where are all the breakouts concentrated when I get these post-DSshampoo breakouts? You guessed it, below the hairline in all directions.... Between the eyes and the ears... I even get these traveling patterns that come down from the scalp and around my eyes.
It never fails... I've seen it too many times to accept any other explanation...the DS shampoo makes mites migrate onto the face where the ZZ creme kills them and causes a new terrible breakout, even if I haven't seen one for a while.
And I'm starting to even think that this DS shampoo, which is not effective at killing mites where they stand, is even the reason why I've not stopped my treatments in 20 months yet I'm sitting here typing to you with a face that is terribly broken out.
I was offered free samples of the DS scalp serum before their production, but never received any... maybe that's what I need to end this repeating cycle.
This is what's happening and there's no doubt in my mind, the DS shampoo does not eradicate mites on the scalp with any amount of use, but does every time send breakouts / mites leaving my scalp and entering the face where the ZZ effectively kills them and makes a new batch of terrible breakouts.
I just need to get to the botom of this. I DO have the mites, STILL do, they ARE the majority of the cause of my acne. but I'm close to TWO YEARS now!!... I should not be sitting here with a severely broken out face while I think about scrounging up more money for treatments because my supply of ZZ and soap is running low.
undeniable observations : 20 months and not cured
Moderators: Julia, Walter, Administrator
I would also like to respectfully ask for a good explanation as to why these cremes are so expensive.
There is nothing in the viewable ingrediants that's all that rare or expensive... so why 28 and 29$ for each couple tablespoons of creme?
I make $7/hr at my job, am getting into 20 months of this treatment now, am still not cured, my face looks terrible at this present time, and I'm probably going to be making another order. Is this really fair? How many thousands of dollars do I need to spend on this stuff to give me some lasting results? This isn't a charity operation, so how much of a killing is being made off me while I continue to suffer with mites and acne? seriously..
There is nothing in the viewable ingrediants that's all that rare or expensive... so why 28 and 29$ for each couple tablespoons of creme?
I make $7/hr at my job, am getting into 20 months of this treatment now, am still not cured, my face looks terrible at this present time, and I'm probably going to be making another order. Is this really fair? How many thousands of dollars do I need to spend on this stuff to give me some lasting results? This isn't a charity operation, so how much of a killing is being made off me while I continue to suffer with mites and acne? seriously..
And before anyone decided to tell me I'm beinga brat with my convictions.... consider the facts
I am a lower-middleclass person, I can hardly afford this stuff, I've spent a LOT of money on these cremes and still have a LOT of acne. Mite test w/ microscope = yes, positive.
Simple as that, I've used these products as directed for a long time and still have acne and can still produce positive mite tests, yet I'm still here pleading for help, answers, I do believe in the treatments although I think the treatments are conflicting with the only partially-effective DSshampoo due to what I said... I still have faith, hope, and still enough trust to continue on... how about some more customer appreciation this time around?.. this is too expensive for me... a year & half supply of different treatment cremes and also 6 shampoos and a couple dozen bars of soap... already bought and mostly used... and mite test = positive , acne = right now a lot since I used the DS shampoo this week
I am a lower-middleclass person, I can hardly afford this stuff, I've spent a LOT of money on these cremes and still have a LOT of acne. Mite test w/ microscope = yes, positive.
Simple as that, I've used these products as directed for a long time and still have acne and can still produce positive mite tests, yet I'm still here pleading for help, answers, I do believe in the treatments although I think the treatments are conflicting with the only partially-effective DSshampoo due to what I said... I still have faith, hope, and still enough trust to continue on... how about some more customer appreciation this time around?.. this is too expensive for me... a year & half supply of different treatment cremes and also 6 shampoos and a couple dozen bars of soap... already bought and mostly used... and mite test = positive , acne = right now a lot since I used the DS shampoo this week
I should also add that I've enjoyed some periods of good skin clarity and happiness due to these treatments and controlling mites.
but the mites are still with me, and they can be here or there, and they can turn a clear face into acne vulgaris in a flash.... and the last several times this has happened within a few days of using the DS shampoo.
What happens each time is this... the longer I treat with ZZ and don't use DS shampoo and don't even worry about the scalp = the better my face gets. and.... using DS shampoo after not having used it in so long brings a sudden surge of acne running down out of the scalp and onto the face.
Why did I keep trying to use the shampoo if it kept messing everything up for me? Because I want the mites gone, just because they're hidden in a scalp doesn't mean they're gone, and I'm now convinced that DS hasn't yet found the answer to that setback... I think what I've found is that the best we have for mites in the scalp is a shampoo that causes mites to run away is basically what I think. Also meaning that the ZZ cremes real courses of action is to first kill mites from the face in cycles then second to keep mites in the scalp but detered from coming back onto the face.
but the mites are still with me, and they can be here or there, and they can turn a clear face into acne vulgaris in a flash.... and the last several times this has happened within a few days of using the DS shampoo.
What happens each time is this... the longer I treat with ZZ and don't use DS shampoo and don't even worry about the scalp = the better my face gets. and.... using DS shampoo after not having used it in so long brings a sudden surge of acne running down out of the scalp and onto the face.
Why did I keep trying to use the shampoo if it kept messing everything up for me? Because I want the mites gone, just because they're hidden in a scalp doesn't mean they're gone, and I'm now convinced that DS hasn't yet found the answer to that setback... I think what I've found is that the best we have for mites in the scalp is a shampoo that causes mites to run away is basically what I think. Also meaning that the ZZ cremes real courses of action is to first kill mites from the face in cycles then second to keep mites in the scalp but detered from coming back onto the face.
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SteveInAustin
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:24 am
- Location: Austin, Texas USA
If you've not improved after 20 months on the products, why are you still on them? They're not working for you, so you have to try something else I think.
As for the demodex shampoo, I think you may be on to something there. I have also noticed that when I use the shampoo, pimples start to form right around my hairline and on the top of my forehead. Now that could just mean that it's powerful and is killing the mites near there that the ZZ cream didn't kill. Or it could mean just what you're saying, that the mites are migrating out of the scalp area to the face where the ZZ cream will kill them, and then that's causing the pimples to appear. Or it could mean that the demodex shampoo just causes pimples for whatever reason totally unrelated to mites. I don't know.
Yeah, stop using the shampoo. Just concentrate on your face for now.
The creams are expensive, aren't they? I wish they costed less. Mind you, now that I'm on the maintenance program (ZZ once every 2 nights), it really only costs about US$25 every month or 5 weeks or so. For me anyway. And that's still higher than what you'd pay if you used something like benzoyl peroxide, which is very cheap. But this stuff works for me better than BP. If you're making $7/hr, and you're spending $50/mo on this, then I can totally understand why you're angry.
I do think that you might be better off getting off of tetracycline. You might try that. I know you said your acne increases when you go off it. But let it get worse and just ride it out and see if it gets better on its own. If after 4 months you're still not getting better, go back on it. Or actually, now would be the time to switch antibiotics, because it's probably already adapted to it.
Did you try Carley's Clear & Smooth liquid benzoyl peroxide face wash? It's good stuff. You can add that to your routine once every morning in the shower. Follow the instructions to the letter. I think it will help, because it sounds like you have a real problem with bacteria. Bacteria is half the equation. You're taking an antibiotic, but I think systemic antibiotics really aren't good for the body, and acne bacteria can become resistant to it really fast. They have no resistance to BP, though. And I used Carley's before, and it worked well. Better than when I was on tetracycline.
You might also benefit from low-dose Accutane. Talk to your derm about that.
Steve
Austin, Texas USA
As for the demodex shampoo, I think you may be on to something there. I have also noticed that when I use the shampoo, pimples start to form right around my hairline and on the top of my forehead. Now that could just mean that it's powerful and is killing the mites near there that the ZZ cream didn't kill. Or it could mean just what you're saying, that the mites are migrating out of the scalp area to the face where the ZZ cream will kill them, and then that's causing the pimples to appear. Or it could mean that the demodex shampoo just causes pimples for whatever reason totally unrelated to mites. I don't know.
Yeah, stop using the shampoo. Just concentrate on your face for now.
The creams are expensive, aren't they? I wish they costed less. Mind you, now that I'm on the maintenance program (ZZ once every 2 nights), it really only costs about US$25 every month or 5 weeks or so. For me anyway. And that's still higher than what you'd pay if you used something like benzoyl peroxide, which is very cheap. But this stuff works for me better than BP. If you're making $7/hr, and you're spending $50/mo on this, then I can totally understand why you're angry.
I do think that you might be better off getting off of tetracycline. You might try that. I know you said your acne increases when you go off it. But let it get worse and just ride it out and see if it gets better on its own. If after 4 months you're still not getting better, go back on it. Or actually, now would be the time to switch antibiotics, because it's probably already adapted to it.
Did you try Carley's Clear & Smooth liquid benzoyl peroxide face wash? It's good stuff. You can add that to your routine once every morning in the shower. Follow the instructions to the letter. I think it will help, because it sounds like you have a real problem with bacteria. Bacteria is half the equation. You're taking an antibiotic, but I think systemic antibiotics really aren't good for the body, and acne bacteria can become resistant to it really fast. They have no resistance to BP, though. And I used Carley's before, and it worked well. Better than when I was on tetracycline.
You might also benefit from low-dose Accutane. Talk to your derm about that.
Steve
Austin, Texas USA
The reason I'm still using them is because I have a demodex mites & acne combo, and there are only 2 companies marketing products specifically for this condition... DS and FaceDoctor.SteveInAustin wrote: If you've not improved after 20 months on the products, why are you still on them? They're not working for you, so you have to try something else I think.
I thought that including the shampoo in my regimen was going to help me attack mites from all angles so I could really rid of the problems, the claims from the ones selling it to me were along those lines afterall... because obviously if there's an infestation on the face there is in the scalp also... so I wanted to use the treatments in full-force.
And what I'm saying is that I think it's thanks to this DSshampoo that for almost two years I've been going 1 step forward and 2 steps back, over and over again. I'm absolutely positive that's the case, and I can't help but place blame when two of the products sold two me will never stop conflicting with eachother and allow my face to stay clear. Yes, allowing mites to live on in the scalp while keeping the face clear is the better option for my happiness... but I wasn't told those were the choices.... now as I reach the 2-year mark on DS products, I will be out a couple thousand bucks and still be at square one in the battle... it certainly doesn't seem fair when I bought into this company's products in complete faith...used for sooo long and still THIS WEEK have conducted my own positive demodex mite test from my own brow.
I did try that, for more than 5 months, and it was just about the most miserable time of my life. More recently, (about 4 months ago from now, my doctor and I tried weening me off of the tetracycline by taking 1 capsule a day instead of two.... and even that drop to half dosage caused my face to go all to hell. There's just no way around it when I got mites going back and forth between my scalp and face.... I've tried 'riding it out' for a long time and tried weening myself off... my face is a mess when mites are effecting it, and it's 10 times as bad when they're effecting it and I'm not on antibiotics.SteveInAustin wrote: I do think that you might be better off getting off of tetracycline. You might try that. I know you said your acne increases when you go off it. But let it get worse and just ride it out and see if it gets better on its own. If after 4 months you're still not getting better, go back on it. Or actually, now would be the time to switch antibiotics, because it's probably already adapted to it.
Jeepers.
I see what you're up against. First, most of us are in the lower-middle class. The days of three classes are gone.
Here's what I recommend that you do:
Buy (yes, I knowIknow$$$) some laundry liquid from the pet store that says it helps with allergies and dust mites. Use it on the clothing that comes close to your skin, and use it on your linens. Use it every second, third, or fourth washing.
Dump your old pillows. Save $$ for a good latex pillow later.
Wool? Is there wool in your house? Um, I say you need to do something about that.
Cats? Dogs? If so, clean their ears regularly with ear cleaning solution. (Yes, even the cat!) Birds? Dust them regularly with a miticide for pet birds.
I want something to work for you. You have done what you can by using the products. I want you to have clear skin.
How about the sofa? Do you put your face on the same place as always when watching television? Tip your sofa on its back and put the television on the opposite side of the room. That way you can see the television, but your face will be on the other arm of the sofa. (
)
Try some stuff based on what I say to you today. Can you do that? Oh, and vacuum your bed. It's a pain, but it cleans up heaps of dead skin flakes and dust that you would never know was there if I didn't tell you I have seen this for myself. (Ick!)
--Marla
Here's what I recommend that you do:
Buy (yes, I knowIknow$$$) some laundry liquid from the pet store that says it helps with allergies and dust mites. Use it on the clothing that comes close to your skin, and use it on your linens. Use it every second, third, or fourth washing.
Dump your old pillows. Save $$ for a good latex pillow later.
Wool? Is there wool in your house? Um, I say you need to do something about that.
Cats? Dogs? If so, clean their ears regularly with ear cleaning solution. (Yes, even the cat!) Birds? Dust them regularly with a miticide for pet birds.
I want something to work for you. You have done what you can by using the products. I want you to have clear skin.
How about the sofa? Do you put your face on the same place as always when watching television? Tip your sofa on its back and put the television on the opposite side of the room. That way you can see the television, but your face will be on the other arm of the sofa. (
)Try some stuff based on what I say to you today. Can you do that? Oh, and vacuum your bed. It's a pain, but it cleans up heaps of dead skin flakes and dust that you would never know was there if I didn't tell you I have seen this for myself. (Ick!)
--Marla
I'm fairly meticulous in keeping my surroundings clean. I always use fresh pillow-cases, fresh towels, etc. I do have a cat, but he don't have no parasite problems and doesn't deserve the stress of ear treatments when he doesn't have an earmite condition. Yea I'm sure my cat hosts mites even though he's an indoor cat, but I don't think the cat was the route of any of my infestations or reinfestations.
I do have a pilow and matress cover meant to control dustmites, but I don't think dustmites are a problem for me either.
No wool.
I never touch my face to any chouch or chair.
I don't think going obsessive is any help, the goal afterall is to get to be more normal, like the majority of people who's faces take care of themselves without much thought to any of this germ-o-phobe stuff.
Like I said I have the demodex mites. I've seen them through my scope, and any time I feel like they're running a muck on my face I'm able to produce a positive skin scrape test on myself though it takes a few tries. My surroundings and habits are as clean as they need to be and moreso, I don't need to become a bubble-boy.
I do have a pilow and matress cover meant to control dustmites, but I don't think dustmites are a problem for me either.
No wool.
I never touch my face to any chouch or chair.
I don't think going obsessive is any help, the goal afterall is to get to be more normal, like the majority of people who's faces take care of themselves without much thought to any of this germ-o-phobe stuff.
Like I said I have the demodex mites. I've seen them through my scope, and any time I feel like they're running a muck on my face I'm able to produce a positive skin scrape test on myself though it takes a few tries. My surroundings and habits are as clean as they need to be and moreso, I don't need to become a bubble-boy.
Short term
Yep. Gotcha. I understand.
Still, I recommend that you reconsider for this reason: If you can interrupt the hatching cycles enough times, then the population will naturally decrease. The point of these tiresome tedious exercises is to eliminate the eggs and subsequent generations that hatch when the eggs reach the host (that's you) and hatch, forming new mites which are capable of reaching maturity and procreating.
Indoor cat; outdoor cat . . . makes no difference because it isn't the mites on the cat. It's the eggs in the cat's fur (and the mites that rub off of you at night when the cat is snoozing on your face.)
A couple of months of pure torture in the form of extreme inconvenience will go a long way toward success.
Mite eggs don't die. Mites die. The eggs within the mites remain as a pestilence waiting to happen long after the mite corpse is gone.
It's not about cleanliness. It's about the life cycle of these dratted pests.
Still, I recommend that you reconsider for this reason: If you can interrupt the hatching cycles enough times, then the population will naturally decrease. The point of these tiresome tedious exercises is to eliminate the eggs and subsequent generations that hatch when the eggs reach the host (that's you) and hatch, forming new mites which are capable of reaching maturity and procreating.
Indoor cat; outdoor cat . . . makes no difference because it isn't the mites on the cat. It's the eggs in the cat's fur (and the mites that rub off of you at night when the cat is snoozing on your face.)
A couple of months of pure torture in the form of extreme inconvenience will go a long way toward success.
Mite eggs don't die. Mites die. The eggs within the mites remain as a pestilence waiting to happen long after the mite corpse is gone.
It's not about cleanliness. It's about the life cycle of these dratted pests.
Walter
Walter has commented on this subject in the past. He is in agreement with you that it is not necessary to alter your lifestyle to the extreme. He has mentioned that he no longer invites close contact with pets.
My personal experience shows that introducing new people and their pets to my environment can produce unpleasant breakouts within three days. At that time, I go off of my maintenance program and begin treating intensely.
My personal experience also shows that after 40+ years of acne, Walter's products work for me. Yet if I let down my guard, I can become re-infested within three months -- sooner if I have contact with infested people, animals, or contaminated bedding, furniture, and computer peripherals.
There are cures for many diseases, yet the organisms that cause the disease are not eradicated from the earth. We simply take precautions to prevent re-infection. Same with demodicosis. Same with visible household pests like flies, cockroaches, and spiders.
My personal experience shows that introducing new people and their pets to my environment can produce unpleasant breakouts within three days. At that time, I go off of my maintenance program and begin treating intensely.
My personal experience also shows that after 40+ years of acne, Walter's products work for me. Yet if I let down my guard, I can become re-infested within three months -- sooner if I have contact with infested people, animals, or contaminated bedding, furniture, and computer peripherals.
There are cures for many diseases, yet the organisms that cause the disease are not eradicated from the earth. We simply take precautions to prevent re-infection. Same with demodicosis. Same with visible household pests like flies, cockroaches, and spiders.
Moreso I want Walter's take on my whole situation, especially the way I believe the shampoo is responsible for 1) not effectively treating my scalp and 2) reinfecting my face with every cycle as I use the shampoo.
And I want to know what Walter thinks I should do next and also what he can do to keep this from sending me to the poor house since I soon will have used up three 6month supplies and still have mites on my face.
As far as contact with my one pet, my cat, I think I do enough. Which is to say I do not use my cat as a pillow, I do not let my cat near or on my pillow, and I do not touch my face with my hand or anything that has touched the cat.
And I want to know what Walter thinks I should do next and also what he can do to keep this from sending me to the poor house since I soon will have used up three 6month supplies and still have mites on my face.
As far as contact with my one pet, my cat, I think I do enough. Which is to say I do not use my cat as a pillow, I do not let my cat near or on my pillow, and I do not touch my face with my hand or anything that has touched the cat.
To Marla
Ok I definately have a problem with this whole thing. A cure means that you don't have symptoms and don't need to treat yourself anymore. You say you have to do a maintenance treatment which means this is not a cure..just another treatment. If this was a cure you could stop taking the zz cream or other cream altogether after the 3-4 months and never show symptoms again. So this can't be a cure because if it was then you would never need to do a maintenance treatment. If you haven't had problems with it for the first 20 years of your life let's say..then there's no reason you should have to have a problem with it after taking treatment. If the theory is correct..ones you kill most of the mites..nearly all..then your immune system should be back to strength and be able to fight them off without showing physical symptoms just as your body could the first 20 years of your life before showing symptoms. I started seeing my symptoms after I used stridex pads for a couple days which caused a reaction in me..I would've never had a problem if i didn't use stridex pads on my face about 4 months ago.
Right Sandy!
I wish Walter or someone with fluent knowledge of the product would comment on this. If your immune system was able to fight it off for however long until you experienced symptoms of demodex...one would think once you eliminated nearly all the mites..however many your body needs to eliminate to be able to control them without the help of the creams..that you would then be able to go back to living a normal lifestyle with no restrictions.