Dr Nase reaction on Yahoo group
Moderators: Julia, Walter, Administrator
In my experience, Ivermectin is mostly be used for the stoch raising. It means that it is be well used on the animal and agricultural. It is good for killing verming however it also have some side effect. That is why many docoters remind pepple not to use it on human's body. There is also some other medicines on the market which also good for killing bacteria but also may bring some side effects. The effect is important however the security is also important. It is not easy to find a demodex products which is not only effective but also security. Walter's job is good.
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Brady Barrows
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Janmes,Janmes wrote:In my experience, Ivermectin is mostly be used for the stoch raising. It means that it is be well used on the animal and agricultural. It is good for killing verming however it also have some side effect. That is why many docoters remind pepple not to use it on human's body. There is also some other medicines on the market which also good for killing bacteria but also may bring some side effects. The effect is important however the security is also important. It is not easy to find a demodex products which is not only effective but also security. Walter's job is good.
You are correct. This prescription drug has never been in any clinical trial research studies for rosacea and no one knows what the long term effects are. Some have reported upset stomach as one of the side effects. Using the Z cream is so much safer and works great. That is why I am in this group since I know for a fact the Z cream works. Better than anything I have ever used.
Brady Barrows
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Brady Barrows
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Re: Dr Nase reaction on Yahoo group
Walter,Walter wrote:Dr Nase wrote on rosacea-support yahoo group a rather rude, impolite and based on nothing comment about us
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/70088
If somebody feels to reply there in supporting us your very welcome,
we will probable do ourselves to.
Walter
I have personally emailed Dr. Nase about this about a week ago asking him to explain his comment. I refuse to post at rosacea-support but as you suggest any rosacean in this forum can go to r-s and ask for an explanation from Dr. Nase or post how Demodex Solutions, LTD is an excellent company offering personal advice from Walter who has demonstrated graciousness, fairness and generosity. There are no substantiated posts anywhere that Demodex Solutions, LTD, is not a good company. It is a good company and aren't we glad we heard about the Z cream from Walter and that he has invested in marketing the Z cream and all the other demodex products for our benefit worldwide? I have posted my comment to Dr. Nase's statement at my rosaceans yahoo group and personally emailed Dr. Nase to do something about disparaging remarks about Demodex Solutions, LTD. I urge any who are reading this to speak out if you care about justice.
Brady Barrows
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Brady Barrows
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Hilda,Hilda wrote:Well...after getting cured..yes you read it well, cured from bad Rosacea, with one year of faithful use of the Demodex products and thanks to Walter's encouragement, I do feel qualified to repply to Dr. Nase. I did repply and told my story...I don't know it he will post my repply...still yet to see. If you want to know which is my picture I'll tell you. After all a picture is worth a thousand words...
Did you post ever make it on r-s? I don't see it. Please refer to the message number if it was posted. If not, please re-post again, asking David Pascoe, the group owner, to please, in all fairness allow your post to stand. All posts at r-s are moderated and the army of moderators sometimes will not allow posts to be published on the web. r-s is basically controlled by the Rosacea Research Foundation - http://www.rosacea-research.org - which is basically a pro USA pharmaceutical company and IPL treatment organization that is run by rosaceans headed up by Dr. Nase and David Pascoe. As you can see, very little credence is given to the theory that the demodex mite has any basis for the pathophysiology for rosacea. I have quoted Dr. Nase's statements regarding the demodex mites at this editorial (toward the bottom of the page) >
http://www.rosaceans.com/html/demodex.html
Brady Barrows
Dear Mr. Brady,
Thank You for your post. I have checked the site several times and I have not seen a reply to date from Dr. Nase. I had to respond to his comments because it is so unfair to make a blanket accusation or generalization about a company or it's products without really knowing how it has helped so many people aflicted with Rosacea. Having sufered from the ill effects of papular rosacea for over 18 years years and having gone through every conceivable conventional treatment with no good results, I was blessed to find the DS products, at a time when I was so despondent over my condition, that I was almost suicidal. I will try to post again with an appeal to the site owner.
Thank You for your post. I have checked the site several times and I have not seen a reply to date from Dr. Nase. I had to respond to his comments because it is so unfair to make a blanket accusation or generalization about a company or it's products without really knowing how it has helped so many people aflicted with Rosacea. Having sufered from the ill effects of papular rosacea for over 18 years years and having gone through every conceivable conventional treatment with no good results, I was blessed to find the DS products, at a time when I was so despondent over my condition, that I was almost suicidal. I will try to post again with an appeal to the site owner.
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Brady Barrows
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- Contact:
Hilda,Hilda wrote:Dear Mr. Brady,
Thank You for your post. I have checked the site several times and I have not seen a reply to date from Dr. Nase. I had to respond to his comments because it is so unfair to make a blanket accusation or generalization about a company or it's products without really knowing how it has helped so many people aflicted with Rosacea. Having sufered from the ill effects of papular rosacea for over 18 years years and having gone through every conceivable conventional treatment with no good results, I was blessed to find the DS products, at a time when I was so despondent over my condition, that I was almost suicidal. I will try to post again with an appeal to the site owner.
Great. Thanks for the quick response. Did you ever get one of your posts on r-s approved and if so which message number? I haven't found any post other than katwalker's polite question why he said what he did. I haven't seen one other post on this subject and it is a shame there is nothing more said about the subject since r-s is the largest rosacea group on planet earth. Name one that is bigger and you can't find it. Hopefully your new post will make in on the r-s approved posts. I would be very polite and respectful since the moderators are very sensitive to any disparaging remarks toward Dr. Nase. You might point out what you have said about your emotional distress over rosacea brought you to the point of suicide and the relief you experienced from using the products from Demodex Solutions, LTD. Hope your post stands. We'll be watching.
Brady Barrows
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Brady Barrows
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Hilda,Hilda wrote:Dear Mr. Brady,
Thank You for your post. I have checked the site several times and I have not seen a reply to date from Dr. Nase. I had to respond to his comments because it is so unfair to make a blanket accusation or generalization about a company or it's products without really knowing how it has helped so many people aflicted with Rosacea. Having sufered from the ill effects of papular rosacea for over 18 years years and having gone through every conceivable conventional treatment with no good results, I was blessed to find the DS products, at a time when I was so despondent over my condition, that I was almost suicidal. I will try to post again with an appeal to the site owner.
I have not seen any post on r-s so I guess the moderators wouldn't approve it? Katwalker's post is the only one that was allowed >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/70302
And then silence. What a shame.
Brady Barrows
Re: Dr. Nase reply...this is it I guess
I checked my e-mail today and this is what I found that may resemble a response to a post I sent to Dr. Nase that never made it to the general board (I was not approved I guess, how's that for censorship) This was directed at the Rosacea group from Dr. Nase:
Hello Group,
One of the biggest problems rosacea sufferers face today is the
total confusion surrounding rosacea. It can induce a migraine in
any one whho reads the literature. The Internet use to be a good
source for information, but now the search engines are being bought
by companies with their own agendas -- e.g. demodex solutions and
other knock offs.
Demodex DOES NOT play a significant role in most rosacea sufferers.
In recent studies where 100% of demodex where killed via oral
medications, over 60% of rosacea sufferers where unaffected, 20% had
mild improvement and the remaining 20% had excellent improvement.
So, as you can see 80 out of 100 patients are not affected by
Demodex.
Problem -- Dr. Zhao of Demodex Solutions has been aggresively
marketing anti-demodex products for years. He claims that 90% of
acne is cause by Demodex (completely wrong) and almost 100% of
rosacea can be cured (near-perfect) with his products (wrong
again). Dr. Zhao's main focus group have been on patients in third
world countries where demodex infestation is a real problem, but in
most areas it is not.
The "cure" claims and the percentages are a dead give away like Dave
Flemmings DMSO-Fluc. cure which has hurt more people than it has
helped.
The other dead give away for Dr. Zhao is that he has also produced a
cure for baldness. His cure is based on blood flow (wrong again),
as most pattern baldness is caused by DHT and pseudoestrogens. Now
to cure acne, rosacea and baldness, he should also be able to walk
on water.
So mites are not a primary player in rosacea. With that said, some
will respond positively to demodex products if there immune system
is downregulated or if they have used steroids too long. For some
reason there is a strong correlation with this subset of rosacea
sufferers.
Please understand that the purpose of this post is to put some
perspective back into rosacea and understand that nothing further
will be gained by studying demodex, bacteria within demodex or
secretions. Rosacea is a genetic disorder that involves primarily
blood vessels, dilator nerves and epidermal dilator substances
released from impaired epidermal cells (keratinocytes).
Regards,
Geoffrey
______________________________
Dr. Geoffrey Nase
Ph.D. Neurovascular Physiologist
http://www.drnase.com
______________________________
What can you say...the man is so close minded...
Hello Group,
One of the biggest problems rosacea sufferers face today is the
total confusion surrounding rosacea. It can induce a migraine in
any one whho reads the literature. The Internet use to be a good
source for information, but now the search engines are being bought
by companies with their own agendas -- e.g. demodex solutions and
other knock offs.
Demodex DOES NOT play a significant role in most rosacea sufferers.
In recent studies where 100% of demodex where killed via oral
medications, over 60% of rosacea sufferers where unaffected, 20% had
mild improvement and the remaining 20% had excellent improvement.
So, as you can see 80 out of 100 patients are not affected by
Demodex.
Problem -- Dr. Zhao of Demodex Solutions has been aggresively
marketing anti-demodex products for years. He claims that 90% of
acne is cause by Demodex (completely wrong) and almost 100% of
rosacea can be cured (near-perfect) with his products (wrong
again). Dr. Zhao's main focus group have been on patients in third
world countries where demodex infestation is a real problem, but in
most areas it is not.
The "cure" claims and the percentages are a dead give away like Dave
Flemmings DMSO-Fluc. cure which has hurt more people than it has
helped.
The other dead give away for Dr. Zhao is that he has also produced a
cure for baldness. His cure is based on blood flow (wrong again),
as most pattern baldness is caused by DHT and pseudoestrogens. Now
to cure acne, rosacea and baldness, he should also be able to walk
on water.
So mites are not a primary player in rosacea. With that said, some
will respond positively to demodex products if there immune system
is downregulated or if they have used steroids too long. For some
reason there is a strong correlation with this subset of rosacea
sufferers.
Please understand that the purpose of this post is to put some
perspective back into rosacea and understand that nothing further
will be gained by studying demodex, bacteria within demodex or
secretions. Rosacea is a genetic disorder that involves primarily
blood vessels, dilator nerves and epidermal dilator substances
released from impaired epidermal cells (keratinocytes).
Regards,
Geoffrey
______________________________
Dr. Geoffrey Nase
Ph.D. Neurovascular Physiologist
http://www.drnase.com
______________________________
What can you say...the man is so close minded...
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Brady Barrows
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- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:47 am
- Contact:
Dr. Nase finally responds to posts on Demodex Solutions
Walter,Walter wrote:I will answer this one tomorrow
Walter
The message is at this url >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/71352
There were some positive posts for Demodex Solutions at message #71364 and Dr. Nase responses at messages 71378 and 71379.
The big deal with rosaceans is using the term 'cure' for rosacea. The NRS and most American rosacea 'authorities' say there is no cure for rosacea. So when anyone uses the term 'cure' for rosacea it is like yelling 'fire' in a theatre and everyone panics. I avoid using the term cure and use the term 'control' since everyone finds this word politically correct.
It may be that Zhao Zhongzhou says somewhere that the Z cream 'cures' rosacea and possibly the translator used this term to translate 'control' but who knows? I have not heard that Zhao Zhongzhou says he 'cures' baldness. Where did Dr. Nase come up with that one?
I really haven't taken time to check the DS site if you actually use the term cure to describe what any of your products do, but that is the reason rosaceans freak out if you use that term. Just thought you should know.
Now that he is slamming me it takes some of the attention away from your company. I think he is making a big mistake because I think there will be a significant number of rosaceans who will still try the DS products and get relief for their rosacea. When this significant number of rosaceans report back that the Z cream works they will remember what he said about it and his credibility will drop.
When he reports on studies conducted on Ivermectin and other prescription drugs that supposedly kill demodex, that really has nothing to do with the Z cream. The Z cream is what needs to be clinically studied and I am confident that the results will be postive. My guess is that at least 50% of rosaceans will get clearance of their rosacea using the Z cream in a double-blind, plaecbo controlled, clinical research study and that an additional 30% the Z cream will improve their rosacea. What needs to be done is someone with credibility should perform this study.
Brady Barrows
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Brady Barrows
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- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:47 am
- Contact:
Walter,Walter wrote:I will answer this one tomorrow
Walter
Check out my post at this url at my rosaceans yahoo group >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... ssage/3393
And then note this post at r-s >
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/71402
Brady Barrows
Brady,
G. Nase lost all credibility with me a long time ago. I have stopped posting to the Rosacea Support board ever since he began dominating the board. His last note slamming D.S. and you, just makes him look ridiculous!
He's willing to discuss things like Boswellia, that only a handful of people have tried... but D.S. products, that have helped so many people, including myself, he denigrates.
So many things that he promotes, including the metros, noritate, IPL, have been proven to reduce demodex and therefore help rosacea symptoms. Yet he refuses to acknowedlge this.
I agree, he is being very shortsighted.
Heather
P.S. Hilda's posting is on the list....here's the link:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/70370
G. Nase lost all credibility with me a long time ago. I have stopped posting to the Rosacea Support board ever since he began dominating the board. His last note slamming D.S. and you, just makes him look ridiculous!
He's willing to discuss things like Boswellia, that only a handful of people have tried... but D.S. products, that have helped so many people, including myself, he denigrates.
So many things that he promotes, including the metros, noritate, IPL, have been proven to reduce demodex and therefore help rosacea symptoms. Yet he refuses to acknowedlge this.
I agree, he is being very shortsighted.
Heather
P.S. Hilda's posting is on the list....here's the link:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ro ... sage/70370
Okay, so to be fair about his slow response, Dr. Nase was away for several weeks and didn't answer anyone. But he's made several posts since in the past two days since getting around to the demodex posts. While I can understand how people would still be upset over his attitude, he has gone from saying, "Demodex mites have no effect on rosacea" to "Demodex mites may exacerbate rosacea" to "Demodex mites may be a significant factor in certain subtypes of rosacea (those with topical steroid abuse) or those who have noticed an increase in symptoms after using Elidel for a while."
Yes, Hilda, your post made it on. I saw it right when it came out long ago. I'm actually not sure any posts get restricted unless they have absolutely nothing to do with rosacea and related skin issues. Since this recently popped up on the Yahoo site, I've seen many posts slamming DS products and many praising them. For anyone - if you think your message hasn't been posted and it's been more than one day, do a search with your username. This should bring up all of your posts or posts in which your username has been mentioned. On some days there are many, many, many posts, and it's easy to lose track of a specific one. If you're checking back only once a week, it's next to impossible to find that post without doing a word-specific post (or knowing the specific number assigned to that post). I've lost track of posts I read two days earlier and just had to do a keyword search to find them.
To defend Dr. Nase's perspective:
1) He's a scientist, and scientists are skeptical of treatments unless there is supporting evidence. That's how science works.
2) I think he tried these products at one point and had bad results. I do think these products can be very irritating for some rosaceans. At the same time, though, Metrogel, Elidel, and many other products are recognized as helpful but are still irritating for some. To go back to point #1, Dr. Nase is just going to be skeptical over irritation when there aren't scientific studies to back up the products' efficacy. Furthermore, the only rule for rosaceans is that if a product causes irritation, stop using it. These products may be irritating for some, so they have to discontinue before using it long enough to see results (or not). On the other hand, a rosacean may also go through that "rough" demodex-dying-off-and-wreaking-havoc-on-your-skin and see that as irritation.
3) For those studies that have been conducted, Dr. Nase has a point. It's bad science to generalize that because Treatment A worked on Population X that it will work on Population Y. Doesn't mean it will or won't work, it just means that you don't assume. There are many, many genetic and environmental differences between Chinese and Americans that make the generalization of those results to Americans of European descent questionnable.
4) Dr. Nase has a huge issue with anything that claims to be the only cure for rosacea, particularly when there is financial gain to be had by those making those claims. While many of the things Dr. Nase is pointing out about DS I know not to be true because of this message board, I can see where he got these things based on the "sales" portion of the DS website. Meaning, I know DS does not think certain claims are true, but the information on the main DS website are vague in some places and misleading. So, to address Tioh, he feels fine discussing Boswellia because there is no one company heavily advertising the benefits of Boswellia without the studies to back them up.
5) What everyone should remember about Dr. Nase, supporter of him or not, is that he is just offering his opinion. He is basing his opinion on the studies he's seen, personal experience, and the experiences of others that are reported to him. The same is true when you see a medical doctor, psychologist, lawyer, your best friend, anyone. Presumably, a person who specializes in the field relating to your question will know more than your average Joe on the street, but that doesn't mean they know everything. That's why people get second opinions on tough medical cases. Again, Dr. Nase has a Ph.D. in vascular studies (or something along those lines) and studies this stuff thoroughly and has personally struggled with rosacea for years. But that doesn't mean everything he's said is correct. As should be obvious for anyone who follows the Yahoo group for more than a week, for any product you have out there that works for Person A's rosacea, it will be irritating for Person B, and have no effect one way or the other on Person C. With such confusing data, it's hard to sort out the efficacy of a product without multiple scientific studies. Dr. Nase is just trying to sort through this and translate it for us laypeople. So, allow for possible errors in judgement. Keep restating your position, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - just because he may be incorrect about the effectiveness of DS products doesn't mean that he is wrong about other possible solutions/treatments for rosacea.
On a personal note, I feel like the child of a divorce. I feel that there must be something helpful in the DS products or else you guys wouldn't be hanging around talking about how much it's helped you. On the other hand, I'm also not sure if it is the best and only way to treat rosacea. I feel that I don't have enough personal experience either way with the DS products to come to a conclusion about whether or not they work or me. I refuse to make any statements about whether or not I think they will work for others because whenever I've done that about any product, someone else pops up saying, "But it did/did not help me." All I can do is discuss my experience.
Rosacea's complex, folks, particularly when you factor in other skin problems that go along with it. So, assuming not all rosaceans benefit from demodex deinfestation (something DS and Nase agree on), you already have two groups of people with different experiences. Furthermore, for those types of rosaceans who may benefit from eliminating demodex, there may be ingredients in the products that make them too irritating to be able to use, so you've culled out another group. So you can see the multiple issues going on here.
And I gotta tell ya... rosaceans are so desperate for effective treatments or a cure that we will try anything. As long as there is at least one person popping up occasionally saying, "Treatment X really worked for me," people will be drawn to it. All the dissenting opinions in the world isn't going to make a difference because if that person is desperate enough, he will latch on to that hope. Dr. Nase is just trying to protect people from companies that will try to exploit this desperateness. However, if your product works, there's not going to be anything to worry about in the long run.
So everybody just chill... go do some yoga... reallign your chakras... If you want to know what happens if you don't relax, just go read the post about adrenal exhaustion or whatever it was called over at the Yahoo group. It will connect you to a nice article about the physiological effects of stress on your body.
-Kat
Yes, Hilda, your post made it on. I saw it right when it came out long ago. I'm actually not sure any posts get restricted unless they have absolutely nothing to do with rosacea and related skin issues. Since this recently popped up on the Yahoo site, I've seen many posts slamming DS products and many praising them. For anyone - if you think your message hasn't been posted and it's been more than one day, do a search with your username. This should bring up all of your posts or posts in which your username has been mentioned. On some days there are many, many, many posts, and it's easy to lose track of a specific one. If you're checking back only once a week, it's next to impossible to find that post without doing a word-specific post (or knowing the specific number assigned to that post). I've lost track of posts I read two days earlier and just had to do a keyword search to find them.
To defend Dr. Nase's perspective:
1) He's a scientist, and scientists are skeptical of treatments unless there is supporting evidence. That's how science works.
2) I think he tried these products at one point and had bad results. I do think these products can be very irritating for some rosaceans. At the same time, though, Metrogel, Elidel, and many other products are recognized as helpful but are still irritating for some. To go back to point #1, Dr. Nase is just going to be skeptical over irritation when there aren't scientific studies to back up the products' efficacy. Furthermore, the only rule for rosaceans is that if a product causes irritation, stop using it. These products may be irritating for some, so they have to discontinue before using it long enough to see results (or not). On the other hand, a rosacean may also go through that "rough" demodex-dying-off-and-wreaking-havoc-on-your-skin and see that as irritation.
3) For those studies that have been conducted, Dr. Nase has a point. It's bad science to generalize that because Treatment A worked on Population X that it will work on Population Y. Doesn't mean it will or won't work, it just means that you don't assume. There are many, many genetic and environmental differences between Chinese and Americans that make the generalization of those results to Americans of European descent questionnable.
4) Dr. Nase has a huge issue with anything that claims to be the only cure for rosacea, particularly when there is financial gain to be had by those making those claims. While many of the things Dr. Nase is pointing out about DS I know not to be true because of this message board, I can see where he got these things based on the "sales" portion of the DS website. Meaning, I know DS does not think certain claims are true, but the information on the main DS website are vague in some places and misleading. So, to address Tioh, he feels fine discussing Boswellia because there is no one company heavily advertising the benefits of Boswellia without the studies to back them up.
5) What everyone should remember about Dr. Nase, supporter of him or not, is that he is just offering his opinion. He is basing his opinion on the studies he's seen, personal experience, and the experiences of others that are reported to him. The same is true when you see a medical doctor, psychologist, lawyer, your best friend, anyone. Presumably, a person who specializes in the field relating to your question will know more than your average Joe on the street, but that doesn't mean they know everything. That's why people get second opinions on tough medical cases. Again, Dr. Nase has a Ph.D. in vascular studies (or something along those lines) and studies this stuff thoroughly and has personally struggled with rosacea for years. But that doesn't mean everything he's said is correct. As should be obvious for anyone who follows the Yahoo group for more than a week, for any product you have out there that works for Person A's rosacea, it will be irritating for Person B, and have no effect one way or the other on Person C. With such confusing data, it's hard to sort out the efficacy of a product without multiple scientific studies. Dr. Nase is just trying to sort through this and translate it for us laypeople. So, allow for possible errors in judgement. Keep restating your position, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - just because he may be incorrect about the effectiveness of DS products doesn't mean that he is wrong about other possible solutions/treatments for rosacea.
On a personal note, I feel like the child of a divorce. I feel that there must be something helpful in the DS products or else you guys wouldn't be hanging around talking about how much it's helped you. On the other hand, I'm also not sure if it is the best and only way to treat rosacea. I feel that I don't have enough personal experience either way with the DS products to come to a conclusion about whether or not they work or me. I refuse to make any statements about whether or not I think they will work for others because whenever I've done that about any product, someone else pops up saying, "But it did/did not help me." All I can do is discuss my experience.
Rosacea's complex, folks, particularly when you factor in other skin problems that go along with it. So, assuming not all rosaceans benefit from demodex deinfestation (something DS and Nase agree on), you already have two groups of people with different experiences. Furthermore, for those types of rosaceans who may benefit from eliminating demodex, there may be ingredients in the products that make them too irritating to be able to use, so you've culled out another group. So you can see the multiple issues going on here.
And I gotta tell ya... rosaceans are so desperate for effective treatments or a cure that we will try anything. As long as there is at least one person popping up occasionally saying, "Treatment X really worked for me," people will be drawn to it. All the dissenting opinions in the world isn't going to make a difference because if that person is desperate enough, he will latch on to that hope. Dr. Nase is just trying to protect people from companies that will try to exploit this desperateness. However, if your product works, there's not going to be anything to worry about in the long run.
So everybody just chill... go do some yoga... reallign your chakras... If you want to know what happens if you don't relax, just go read the post about adrenal exhaustion or whatever it was called over at the Yahoo group. It will connect you to a nice article about the physiological effects of stress on your body.
-Kat
katwalker, i really appreciate your detailed and reasoned post regarding dr nase.
because of these posts that have been flying so fast and furiously the past few weeks , i have revisited the nase site and others with a renewed interest and some perspective afforded by my successful treatment with ds products.
i am a licensed health care provider with 12 years of clinical experience treating people with all manner of disorders.
(dont let the horrific typing prejudice you ....i am really bad at it, but i am really good at what i do in my profession
)
in any case....i am getting a sudden sense that all persons involved in the complex rosacea discussion are essentially and honestly experiencing and "feeling" a particular part of the "elephant", but as yet no one person has really seen the entire elephant, if you know what i mean.
let me explain.
dr nase is a scientist with a background in vascular studies. his filter is colored by that. and he has admitted to and cited other scientists who echo that some rosaceans :
"may have an underlying autoimmune disease that has damaged his/her facial vessels and surrounding skin,
may have an angiogenesis-related skin disorder where new blood vessels continually grow in the face - therefore, anytime he/she flushes, they have more blood flowing through the facial blood vessels,may have a disorder of the gastrointestinal tract such that anytime he/she eats a specific food, potent dilators are released into the blood stream -- resulting in extended bouts of flushing, may have sebaceous gland abnormalities (with no flushing) that have stimulated a chronic, localized inflammatory reaction that causes damage to facial vessels, may develop rosacea after one extremely stressful event, and may have developed a disease of the facial mast cells (cells surrounding facial blood vessels that release potent substances that can cause microvessels to dilate for prolonged periods) http://rosacea.ii.net/hl/1963.html
then there is dr zhou who posits that rosacea is really the result of a reaction to and an infestation of demodex mites.
it is well documented that dogs with demodectic mange are immune comprosmised. this quote is interesting:
"Most dogs have a microscopic mite population hitching a ride on their body, but the dog's immune system handles it all very nicely. When the immune system is no longer able to control the mites, they begin multiplying, then attacking. It is thought that dogs infected with demodectic mange are immunodeficient. In other words, they are not able to fight off the mites like a healthy dog would. Heredity is believed to play a part in dogs that show signs of demodectic mange so it is strongly recommended that infected dogs be spayed or neutered. Signs of disease appear only when mites reproduce unchecked and occur in unnaturally high numbers. Outbreaks are seen around the eyes, lips and/or lower limbs when the numbers of these mites increase.
Demodectic mange in dogs over 2 years of age is classified as adult-onset, and usually occurs secondary to an underlying cause. Successful treatment of adult-onset mange relies upon identifying and correcting the underlying cause. Dogs with immune suppression due to illnesses like hypothyroid disease, and Cushing's disease, are also candidates for demodectic mange. Demodectic mange may also occur in very old dogs because function of the immune system often declines with age. http://www.akitarescue.com/demodectic_m ... atment.htm
there are also some autoimmune diseases which have to do with the inflammation of blood vessels(vasculitis is one)...remember...the immune system sets off INFLAMMATION. that is it's job.
so what then is the elephant??
again here is another opinion and it is mine...that one day there will be a connection made between rosacea and autoimmune disease. that is to say, that it is indeed an autoimmune disorder.
the list of autoimmune disorders grows yearly, and there is a movement afoot to list autoimmune disease as one discrete disease entity.(instead of seperately as hypothyroidism and rheumatoid arthritis and vasculitis are, for example.)
my bias from my clinical experience is that autoimmune antibody / antigen reactions occur most often due to intestinal hyperpermeability, or leaky gut. there is much research to support this.
some advocate dietary changes for rosacea as part of treatment and see that these are helpful...why? because leaky gut often involves overgrowths of yeasts which are fed by sugars and simple carbohydrates. reducing yeast populations is an important part of fixing the gut wall.
dr nase admits that a "subset" of rosacea sufferrers have an immune system deficiency. he just may not be aware of how many numbers of people are in that subset. or his paradigm of the subset itself needs to change.
in any case i could go on and on but better stop here. this post is already way too long. but my interest in autoimmune disorders (of which i am a sufferrer)and rosacea , which i also had, has synthesized into a new entity as of this moment.
i wonder if someone in the research community will soon make the connection that is already under our noses.
flower
because of these posts that have been flying so fast and furiously the past few weeks , i have revisited the nase site and others with a renewed interest and some perspective afforded by my successful treatment with ds products.
i am a licensed health care provider with 12 years of clinical experience treating people with all manner of disorders.
(dont let the horrific typing prejudice you ....i am really bad at it, but i am really good at what i do in my profession
)in any case....i am getting a sudden sense that all persons involved in the complex rosacea discussion are essentially and honestly experiencing and "feeling" a particular part of the "elephant", but as yet no one person has really seen the entire elephant, if you know what i mean.
let me explain.
dr nase is a scientist with a background in vascular studies. his filter is colored by that. and he has admitted to and cited other scientists who echo that some rosaceans :
"may have an underlying autoimmune disease that has damaged his/her facial vessels and surrounding skin,
may have an angiogenesis-related skin disorder where new blood vessels continually grow in the face - therefore, anytime he/she flushes, they have more blood flowing through the facial blood vessels,may have a disorder of the gastrointestinal tract such that anytime he/she eats a specific food, potent dilators are released into the blood stream -- resulting in extended bouts of flushing, may have sebaceous gland abnormalities (with no flushing) that have stimulated a chronic, localized inflammatory reaction that causes damage to facial vessels, may develop rosacea after one extremely stressful event, and may have developed a disease of the facial mast cells (cells surrounding facial blood vessels that release potent substances that can cause microvessels to dilate for prolonged periods) http://rosacea.ii.net/hl/1963.html
then there is dr zhou who posits that rosacea is really the result of a reaction to and an infestation of demodex mites.
it is well documented that dogs with demodectic mange are immune comprosmised. this quote is interesting:
"Most dogs have a microscopic mite population hitching a ride on their body, but the dog's immune system handles it all very nicely. When the immune system is no longer able to control the mites, they begin multiplying, then attacking. It is thought that dogs infected with demodectic mange are immunodeficient. In other words, they are not able to fight off the mites like a healthy dog would. Heredity is believed to play a part in dogs that show signs of demodectic mange so it is strongly recommended that infected dogs be spayed or neutered. Signs of disease appear only when mites reproduce unchecked and occur in unnaturally high numbers. Outbreaks are seen around the eyes, lips and/or lower limbs when the numbers of these mites increase.
Demodectic mange in dogs over 2 years of age is classified as adult-onset, and usually occurs secondary to an underlying cause. Successful treatment of adult-onset mange relies upon identifying and correcting the underlying cause. Dogs with immune suppression due to illnesses like hypothyroid disease, and Cushing's disease, are also candidates for demodectic mange. Demodectic mange may also occur in very old dogs because function of the immune system often declines with age. http://www.akitarescue.com/demodectic_m ... atment.htm
there are also some autoimmune diseases which have to do with the inflammation of blood vessels(vasculitis is one)...remember...the immune system sets off INFLAMMATION. that is it's job.
so what then is the elephant??
again here is another opinion and it is mine...that one day there will be a connection made between rosacea and autoimmune disease. that is to say, that it is indeed an autoimmune disorder.
the list of autoimmune disorders grows yearly, and there is a movement afoot to list autoimmune disease as one discrete disease entity.(instead of seperately as hypothyroidism and rheumatoid arthritis and vasculitis are, for example.)
my bias from my clinical experience is that autoimmune antibody / antigen reactions occur most often due to intestinal hyperpermeability, or leaky gut. there is much research to support this.
some advocate dietary changes for rosacea as part of treatment and see that these are helpful...why? because leaky gut often involves overgrowths of yeasts which are fed by sugars and simple carbohydrates. reducing yeast populations is an important part of fixing the gut wall.
dr nase admits that a "subset" of rosacea sufferrers have an immune system deficiency. he just may not be aware of how many numbers of people are in that subset. or his paradigm of the subset itself needs to change.
in any case i could go on and on but better stop here. this post is already way too long. but my interest in autoimmune disorders (of which i am a sufferrer)and rosacea , which i also had, has synthesized into a new entity as of this moment.
i wonder if someone in the research community will soon make the connection that is already under our noses.
flower
flower